Interview — 2026-08-10

Patrick. Right, right. Wait, where's the spot? Okay, got. It's, It's, It's, It's, it's, it's it. Yeah. Yeah. Is that what you wanted? Right? You're just like pushing out like YouTube shorts, you know, What are you value? I feel like some things are just like better. Yeah. Like they just provide more value to world or whatever. Yeah. But it's pretty like misaligned with what actually like. Makes money or like that kind of personal benefit. That's true. Okay, I don't know where I'm going. You said what do I actually know? And then I don't know where you are and to like the buses and that. So I'll take the. Yeah, yeah. Like do you care about making impact or. Well I think like doing something making out my own music would be pretty high value to me but if I wouldn't be making my impact at all. So I don't know. You're right. I didn't realize like working on something like AI safety, edit from your lab or like a big non profit would also be pretty high value. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. I guess there's just multiple ways to find the value and I wouldn't mind either. Any of them. Yeah, I Think monetary value is, like, pretty low performance here. Oh, okay. So you would, like, work at Anthropic for, like, lower pay kind of thing. Do you like Puncher Labs or do you also like, smaller? Like, I wouldn't mind as far. Yeah. One of my friends works at, like, a nonprofit team. Like, AI evaluations. Frontier Evaluations. Oh, really? Wait, which. Which meter? Does your bike up brown too or. No? Yeah, walkable. Meter. Interesting. Okay, take a look. Is it also a Brown alum or just a friend? High school. High school. Okay. Okay. So are you, like, thinking of, like, like, your name got brought up when, like, I was talking to Nathan, you know, Nathan Benavides? Lou. Oh, yeah, Yeah. I think you're negative about. Because he was telling me, like, you weren't, like, totally fulfilled with, like, your job at Google or something. And he was telling me, like, I shouldn't join Google because, like, I probably won't learn that much. And it's just like, you know. When did you bring that up? There was a Brown event, actually, two weeks ago. I'm not sure if you got the email. Was it the one on July 22nd? Sounds right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can go to that one. Like, That's true. I feel like brown is walkable enough. Yeah, yeah, like, and I said there's some nice biking too. You can go across the bridge and. Is that. Are you still thinking that? Yeah, he's okay. Interesting. I told him that at, like, a. A different Brown event two weeks before that. Yeah. Like, you're, like, unfulfilled with, like, why are we looking at it not. And you want to, like, pivot to, like, AI safety. I think that's just one of the examples. A lot of things I feel could be a plunge. Okay. I don't know if there's one off my head. Feel like, yeah, obviously I could, like, read about an idea and decide. Oh, I think that's. I guess I don't have, like. Yeah. So I guess the issue is just that, like, Google is not that fulfilling. You don't have that much control over. If you do and, like, you. Yeah. You just feel like the work is kind of draining. Is that what it is? Yeah, I think the work is sort of interesting. Yeah. But it's not very, like, in terms of. I don't care that much about what I'm looking at. I feel nervous, really. But I want. That's fair. Yeah. Is there a reason why, like, you wouldn't want to join, like, those, like, I think a bunch of people I know are, like, from Brown are getting recruited at, like, places like Suno. It's like, it's like an AI, like music. Is that, like, somewhere that you would think or, like. Not really. No. No. Is it really? Yeah. Or like, is that too Early. Yeah. Specifically for Suno. I think it's not good. Oh, okay, okay. I just don't agree with what they're trying to do. Oh, okay, okay. You don't agree with, like. I think so, yeah. It's like sauce. Okay. Okay. I see. I'm excellent. I think it started. I think that comes from the question of do you think art should have, Like, what's the meaning of art? Is there value beyond, like, what's physically on the page? Yeah, that's true. That's true. Yeah, that's true. For. So for a clipper, there's probably, like, very legal value. Right. Just a clip art. Right. Like, for something like a Mona Visa, it's more than just what it is. Right? Oh, okay. Is that what you do? Yeah, yeah. No, I agree. Like, a person has to draw it, not like a A.I. i mean, there's arguments with. But you firmly believe that, Like, I mean, I don't. I don't really have an opinion still. That I'm not really an artist. But you firmly believe that of AI shouldn't really do this kind of thing. I'm not, like, super firmly settled on it. Okay. Like, one immediate thing that comes to mind is just like, I think there are more than enough, like, good musicians. Yeah. Yeah. I don't. I don't know if that's a good argument. I mean, I think it's fair to say that, like, you just don't believe in it. I think that's fully valid. Yeah. Instinctively, I feel like it's just something, but, yeah, I should develop my thoughts on. Yeah. Yeah, I've done it like at once, I guess. Oh, I meaning to do this. When did you start, like, doing, like, music production? Like, was it like, as a kid or. Like. I always kind of want to do back in, like, university. Oh, really? Then I really. I started learning in, like, high school. I Very. On and off, and I'm still not very good at. Is it like, like, electric music or, like. Okay, okay. Like, I learned, like, recording and stuff too, like, how to record. I never really reached out too much or, like, tried to develop it too much. Like, did you do a Brown sk? Like, was it part of a club or was this kind of like a solo music club? I took SNAP and I did, like, solo stuff, but between recruiting and everything else, I brought at my lunch time. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So, like, if. If you didn't have to recruit, you would kind of try to do this full time if you didn't care about money? I guess I don't know if I'll try to do it full time. Oh, really? It's more like a hobby. I feel like, personally I would still value, like, impacting the world myself through learning more references. Yeah, I would just want a job that lets me separate place better because currently I'm like working sometimes on the weekends I'm like, oh, really? So. And I don't have the space to push my phone. Yeah. Yeah. So it kind of is like a996. Some more volunteer. Are they just like serving you on a new process? Not really. I mean, like, I'm not sure what happened when you started, but like I think my mentor just said look to the gti, do some onboarding like tickets or something, and then that's kind of it for at least the first like two weeks. Yeah, I mean that's basically how it was for me too. Okay. I mean, I feel like you're more on the ML side, so I'm sure it's more. I think I'm full stack, so. Okay. Interesting. I think the project is more like model integration than like actually like infra or anything like that. Just like calling an API. Yeah, it's nothing too hot. Yeah. Okay. It. If you're just pivot out of like your current team, like when are you thinking of doing that? Like, do you have a good timeline or is it just something where like if an opportunity comes out, then you consider that kind of thing? I think if you're good enough opportunity, I would be ready to. Oh, so you're not like actively like do anything? Oh, okay. Or like kind of like I have some people who I'm talking or not who I'm talking to like some friends. Yeah, let me know From San Francisco or from. No, from like high school. Oh, okay. You're so good. So how are you liking Google compared to like what you were doing on Brown? Which high school did you go to? Just a random one in war. Oh, wait, which one? I feel like I might know some. Is it the ones near like the Microsoft office? Okay. Although I know. Okay, okay. Most of your high school friends also like cs. 50%. Oh, interesting. Out of my friends, like 80%. Actually now that I said I think I'm the same way. Like 80% of my friends. Are you still in contact with people from Brown? But definitely. It's harder to keep up the relationship when you're not. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, is there not many people from sf like in sf? I think there are, but it's kind of like destroying countries. I would rather be back in school. Yeah. To be honest. Oh, okay. I'm the same way. Yeah. Yeah. I think half of my friend who went to New York. Chicago. Oh, Chicago. Yeah. Surprisingly, I think only like one or two went to New York and a good chunk went to Chicago. Like finance or like quant. Yeah, I think this like 3 imc which is kind of funny. Well, you used to be interested in, like, quant. Right. But what happened? It was like, not fulfilling for you, the culture. Okay. I think the teams were on. I just. Okay. Also, it's like team specific issues. Not like, like the role. Okay, I see. Is it like cut throat? Really? Was it cutthroat? Okay. Also, the closest through the second team I was on was just like, not good. Hey, why is that? Hey, when you say culture is not good, like, how does it compare to, like, Google? Like, way worse. Way worse. Like, the people aren't friendly or is it like, very competitive? It's very competitive. Didn't really make sense. It's like a Google. At least the people are like, reasonable. They know how to live. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like my manager. Like, oh, what are your hobbies? Oh, I like trading, as you said. I like trading. Volatility. Oh, my God. So basically her job is her hobby kind of thing. Yeah. And then off to like 10pm I was like. When we found out he was married, I was like, oh, that's really surprising to. To my other. Other. Yeah. And then we asked him about it, like, randomly one day, you know. Oh, yeah. Like, how's your family? He's like, oh, yeah. My wife works at bank of America. So after work I go like, picture of like, when he works on the weekends, like in the office from like morning to afternoon. Well, money aside, I feel like it's just nicer to be self directed on that, I guess. The snow look, failure mode. What the heck? So basically you just want to make life or like, make work like your entire life. And that's what a lot of people at Citadel are doing. I think it depends on which team for your interest. And I feel like I would be more fine with that since the work was something more than just like increasing liquidity for the market. Yeah. Were the two. Because at Brown you did. I think you told me last time. You doing more. Okay. You still do a lot of that? Not at all. Not at all. I. When you say full stock, are you being like, integrating models? I think. I think last summer I was working on translation. But this time I think she wants you to do. I think it is recommendation. So probably one of one of your models or something is working on. On like, like replies recommendation. I think they give you like, recommendations of what to say. Recommendations of what you say. Oh, so like when somebody opens up comment boxes, they're like, yeah, like, I think there's many different recommendations they're trying to do. Mine is like, so one of them is with comment to heart. So it's not really like the generative model. It's just deciding which one's like the most, I don't know popular which one you show in part and then I think there's another one where I'm going to work on which is like there's three different replies possibilities and I'm like recommending like which one to say. I think. Yeah, I don't know, I don't know the full details because I think she wants me to onboard first. I think that's a distance, like I'm trying to pull it. Are you really close with Nathan? With Nathan? Not super. There's no failure. Not super close. Also you just talked about that one event. Just because your name got brought up. So I was like oh no, I was pretty surprised. Yeah, maybe just because I told him the team I was on and then he was like oh wait, it doesn't like Hatcher, I think he feels some more. Yeah, I was actually talking to him, he told me that like he tried to quit twice is my understanding and then he, they like gave him a raise or something twice the two times he tried to leave. So I think he told me his goal is like he potentially wants to create his own startup. Yeah, I love that. Is that something that interests you too? Like startups? I think if it's something that I really believe in, yeah I'd be willing to work on. Does that entail like creating your own startup or like is it like joining a startup? Xit? Either, either. All I hear is. I'm not that well so that'll be a problem for. It's like you're there for yourself, right? Yeah, I don't know. I feel like I saw so many like events in SF and they're all like like a tech boundaries. It's like what a lot of people talk about. Are you planning to go to a lot of those? I'm not sure. I mean so basically also Internet, Apple in Cupertino and while I was there I attended quite a few of them but it was kind of interesting cuz like it's very hit or miss. Like some of the events like there's people that are actually good at what they do. You can just tell when you talk to them you're like oh wow. Like they're building something pretty cool. Some of them are just like LARPers. If they just say like oh my God, like I can give you a million dollars right now or like I'm building X thing and obviously like I don't think you can actually build it so I don't know, I think it's very, very hidden. Have you attended these events or not? Which area of SF do you live in? Okay, okay. I'm not even that familiar. Since you biked her. I'm assuming it's not super close. Oh, okay. Wait, that's not that far away. Yeah. Is that so much. Okay. Okay, so you're just like right outside. I think we're right on there. Yeah, yeah. But Google, you feel like there's a lot of failure modes or you just Yeah. Okay. I think I'm pretty. I'm in Soma, so I think it's like the intersection between like Mission and like Ape or something here. It's on the board of Tender going. No, I was going to say. Yeah, I remember looking like somewhere around there and being like. Just cuz rent prices like went up so much where I'm just like, yeah, I think I have to take one of these. Yeah. And I wasn't trying to live in South, Especially without a car. Like if you live in south, you need a car. Yeah, Yeah, that's the, that's the, that's the benefit. But you're close to the. The couch ring, right? Okay, that's cool. Yeah, my roommate, he went to Brown as well. He needs the couch for his. Me. Oh, yeah. I think last time you were in the Airbnb, right? Oh, I was living in San Bruno. Oh, okay. I think, I think you said. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember. Down. feel like failure mode is the one you look for, but it's just like you're not really trying to do all of yourself. Interesting. That sucked. That sucked. That sucked. That sucked. Cuz you didn't have a car, right. So you had to take the cow train and take Ubers everywhere. Okay, interesting. When she moves to ss like right after the Airbnb expired. Okay, so like a month after we talk. Okay. Okay, that's good. And your roommate works, you said in South Bay, right? Roblox. Okay. Yeah. Oh yeah, they have free house. Okay. Okay. Wait, actually, what's his name? Brandon. Okay. I might search up. Wait, You hang out with him a lot? Okay, I was think that's who you go with, like rock climbing with stuff? Not really. He doesn't climb actually. Oh, he doesn't climb. I take him once a month for the three, like monthly. Okay. Okay. I too, We cook dinner together and then a lot of the weekends we'll like do something. Pretty the same for all work. Yeah. Yeah. You guys bake together? Wait, that you started doing that when you came here, right? Or did you have brown? No, no, that brown is mostly. Oh, okay. What inspires you to. To kind of start baking? It's also something that I kind of always wanted to do. And then now that we have our kitchen for a good amount of time, like it's not like we move every year or like. Yeah, yeah. It's like I feel better about like getting stuff like a Dutch oven and like a container for like chicken bread. Okay. Okay, interesting. And what kind of bread do you make? We made a focaccia and then. I tried to grab like a little bit of everything. Yeah, that's true. Oh, okay. Milk bread. Like Japanese milk bread. I made milk bread and then sourdough is the main product right now. Okay. We've also done like bagels. Interesting. Do you have like an Instagram where you like post it or. No, I just. Okay. Like a lot of people have asked. Oh, really? Okay. Because I remember high school, there were a couple of people that like had Instagrams of that. I'm like, oh, this is pretty cool. We're not pro enough. I feel like especially my team is really friendly. Really? Yeah. You mean milk bread? That's so cool. Milk bread is pretty easy though. Really? Was it good? Yeah. Okay. I mean, so matters like you made the whole loaf of milk bread. Okay. Okay. But it's also like you could just get it at the store, so I don't know, is it cheaper to make it yourself? I'm assuming it is. Right? Yeah. But like in terms of the time that you put in, it's like. Oh really? Yeah, yeah, but how long does it take? Like a day? Milkwood only takes a few hours, I think. A few hours, Right. Okay. And a little bit true is just you like waiting for it to rise, so. Yeah, that's true. You just like kind of wait. That's true. What other hobby sound so interesting? Cuz I feel like you're like, oh, the music. Do baking? Rock climb. No, more those. So just like kind of something you've been thinking half brown or like. Okay, cool. I mean, now that you're getting circled in, is there anything you want to Yeah. do that I want to do? I don't know. Well, actually one thing I did want to do that I actually did was boxing. Oh yeah? Yeah. I did that in the South Bay though. So I'm trying to figure out like, surely there's places here. I'm sure there are. Yeah. But it's more about like the commute. Just cuz like I like going from SBO to here. It's like what I get here at six something. Yeah. And I eat dinner and it's like already pretty late. I had to figure out like a. A schedule and like if it's close by, so try to squeeze it in. But we'll see. See, For me, that's part of the problem with climbing. It's like I get back at like six something. Yeah. I bike to the climbing gym. I climb for like two hours. I get back, I eat dinner. Like 996 kind of thing or. It's like 10pm yeah, right. It's just like the day is Kind of over. So. Yeah. Wait, how often do you climb? Oh, okay. So very consistent. I wish I could just work from the SF office. I feel like it's so much more. Conveniently reduce the commute by so much. Wait, do you have a 2B? 2B. Yep, it's a 1B, 1B. Well, it's like between a 1B, 1B and a studio, so it's a little bit smaller, but I think it's pretty nice. The area is not nice. Yeah. I'm not gonna lie, looking at the area. Yeah. I went down there to pick up some stuff for another zoo. Okay. Yeah, I was like. I bought some plants off there. Yeah. I was like. Yeah. I'm not. I'm not gonna lie. It's not. It's not gonna be. The year is fine. You know, the couch train, it's like, it's okay. It's not bad. Yeah, it's definitely not bad. Yeah, I wouldn't say everybody works like three plus four hours. There's a lot of the people are like they have families, they go home to their church or something. Their own work at night or something. No, thank you. Okay. There's not much going on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good. Yeah. I don't know. It was either this or like living far away from the Google office. I really wanted to come here for Monday and Friday for food and stuff. Just get a little free food and like, that's why I come here. Like, I mean, I bike here for lunch sometimes I stay for longer to work. Yeah, right. I think it's just convenient. I. I don't want to cook on Monday. Friday. Oh, something else. I was doing a ton in the winter with school. Yeah, there's a lot of purples from Google. Yeah. Just like grow up on LinkedIns. So I should learn. Is it like new grad or just like people, you know, just like general people. Oh, okay. Is it the winter? Yeah. I mean, you can't ski with weather. There's no ski. At night. Right. And then some of my friends do it as well, so. Oh, wait, that's cool. Is that like a hobby of yours? Like skiing? No, it sounds. It's like elementary school. Oh, really? Oh, okay. Okay. Interesting. All right. Because I'm assuming in Seattle there's a lot of place you can ski. Okay, interesting. You also snowboard. Oh, Yeah. okay, okay. I don't know, I'm assuming you're pretty. Pretty good. Cuz like. Okay, I remember I tried to ski and like I totally up. Yeah, yeah. My technique still isn't my. Okay, Is that like in the South? Like, where's the. Where's the ski area? You know? Tahoe. Tahoe. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, Okay, I see. Interesting. That guy. So I guess like you like Google, like in terms of like having a life around it but then like you just don't like the word. Yeah, I. Okay, okay. So like all things considered, I know I really have a room job. Yeah. I can't really complain that much. I'm assuming at that point you just don't want to do work, right? Yeah. And who knows, maybe in two years nothing will matter anyways. What does that mean? Like, you think software engineering or like engineering as a whole would be dead or like just because like things are moving so fast though. Yeah, that's true, that's true. Do you think the AI replace engine was eventually. Cuz I feel like I've heard both arguments, like eventually way out. I don't think it'll be as crazy as people suggest. Yeah. But yeah, I think eventually, eventually. Design, like system design. Yeah, that's true. Are you thinking like 10 years or like 5 years? I don't have enough information though. Yeah. First like I feel like I have to be work on work a good amount of time. Yeah. Okay. We think eventually it will you tell your kids to do engineering like CS or you don't care truly to say it's really the same. I also wouldn't be really. Yeah. Let them do what they want. Yeah. Were you pressured to do CS or like did you find it like, oh, interesting, like since high school kind of thing or. Yeah, like way back when. Oh really? Okay. That's good. Oh, you said you have a bike? Oh, interesting. But you're on a post, right? Oh, okay. And of course I think my parents thought it was pretty good that I wanted. Yeah, yeah. They supported it. All right. I see. I. As a kid, what. What did you actually want to do? Was it actually like to do software engineering or is it like something else? I think actually it was basically just like software engineering, like since middle school, high school. Well, since like elementary school. I was like, okay, I want to do computer stuff. Oh really? Oh, you play like scratch kind of thing. Oh, okay, okay. Like I wear some like stupid strips to like automate stuff in games. Oh, okay. You're really technical thing. Okay, okay. Yeah, interesting. I mean ended up in Google anyway, so I can't compare. Yeah. Like recommendations. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah. It's not like I really tried to do anything like super deep, but yeah, no, I mean if you're making like scripts back in elementary school, I think that's really, really cool. I think it's really unique because a lot of people just like start either like high school or like I started basically in college besides doing like scratch or like apcsa. I mean like I wasn't like kind of high school. Like I didn't really like do anything. Yeah. Kind of just like a hobby or like I didn't really develop it. Like I shouldn't. Yeah, no, no, no. I think that's cool. And I think people who like intrinsically like like computer science are like a lot more talented in my opinion. I think I was talking with Nathan about how he's. He had like CS since the very, very beginning. He's like so updated on everything just cuz like he's passionate about it. Not cuz like he has to as a job or something. I think these days are less considerate from like a. Just like like even. Even for like personal projects it's like what can I actually do that somebody couldn't actually just like prompt plug to do like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I mean there's still value in that but like the act of. The act of coding is less interesting. Recommendations. Okay. Okay. That's true. But do you still code or not like you anti gravity personally for personal spy. Okay. Of school since I joined Google. But how about like Google Engineering? Like you still code? Yeah. Oh yeah. Like like yeah. Oh okay interesting. Or yeah. I mean I still do code by hand somewhere so definitely until like four or five months ago I was doing everything by hand. Yeah. And then I was like yeah, maybe I should try again. Yeah. Yeah. I was like oh it kind of works and now I use it for a good amount of stuff. And then this is a lot of work. Yeah. Oh, but you still like code of majority with no. Nowadays it's majority. Okay. I kind of pivoted. I don't care that much about. Yeah. To be honest like for stuff like sexual of experience. Yeah. It will do basically the same thing and the quality doesn't have to be idea like the fun is not that important. Yeah. I mean do you have like time like outside of work to do a lot of stuff or. Not really. Yeah. What kind of things. Do you do. Yeah. To a certain dee. As long as the design is correct. So I'll just. Or as long as experimental. Yeah. Interesting. I feel. I don't know. I talked to a lot of engineers at Google and they're like oh, I just like these jets you have. So it's kind of interesting. Yeah. I think mostly. Mostly. I guess. Yeah. Probably production P and stuff. I'll still like go over it by hand and like. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I guess I. I could say. I go climbing. Do you think like code is kind of a good option or. Or not really. Cuz I remember this is an I. I talked to a friend about this. He was. I think he. He does like competitive programming. Yeah. So he really likes coding everything by hand. Right. And he's like it has to be like this way. It has to be like a certain way of coding. He doesn't like it being around. I mean there's like similar questions to like is math and art right. I'm not spending forever. Yeah, that's True. And I think what very much comes down to feel like. What. Okay, obviously it comes down to what are. You what? Yeah. Okay. Personally, I feel like. Yeah. At a certain degree. What is. Yeah. But do you view it the same way? Like, as, like, music production? Like, for music, you're like, oh, yeah, like AI. Then, like, coding, I'm interested in. You don't care. Yeah. So I think this kind of comes down to, like, the clip art versus, like, I. Like, if you're just, like, writing out a sugar piece of code that you don't really care about, you're just like. Right. Yeah, I. I don't know if there's a parallel. Maybe it doesn't matter. Like. Or I don't think it matters yet. I big bread. You don't think it matters? Yeah, I guess. Or I'm like, not, like, super opposed to it. Yeah. I don't know what kind of code would have, like, a super. Yeah. Comparable to. Yeah. Maybe something like. I don't know. Yeah. Oh, you view that. I forgot. Maybe. Yeah. Like, there is some code that is just, like, really elegant. Oh, you big bread. Oh, okay. Yeah. Interesting. I don't know, because I feel like I haven't been into coding that much. So for me, it's like, as long it kind of works. Like, I'm not a huge. Like, I mean. Yeah. Recently I feel like. I mean, I know a lot of musicians feel this AI has sucked. Sucked, Sucked away from music or like. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like since I've been way. Oh, really? And so that kind of makes me feel the same way. Like, yeah, good thing. It sucks. Like, the fun out of coding kind of thing sucks to work. Oh, interesting. Try to spend time with friends. It sucks the fun out of coding. Yeah. Okay. I feel like I can rel. I follow a lot of musicians and with their lives of AR and like, other AI tools for generating whatever. Yeah. They say, like, just, like, taking over. Yeah. But there's people who are. Argue that there's art in writing the prompt, generate music. But then wouldn't everything kind of boil down to, like, natural language? Which I guess would be beneficial. Beneficial if, like, you're an amateur and you just want to get started and you're not, like, huge on coding. So it's like, is it good to think, like, art should only be created by people who know what they're doing? Yeah. I don't know. But I think there's an argument too, because, like, I think sushi, like chefs, for example, I think that's like, an art that I wouldn't want. Like a robot. I don't know. I mean, that's like very similar to like anything else, right? Yeah, yeah, I got a bike off the Google program. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like a robot can make it basically the exact same way. Yeah. Like do you care about the output or do you care about like also who made it like the input as well? Yeah. I think this is like something that comes up from all distance. Like the. How you view art. Like do you view it objectively as the product? Yeah, from the. It's like from the lens of the viewer versus from the lens of the killer or some. Some argument like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I heard that argument. I think I saw another client three days ago. Oh really? Anyways, how. That's another thing. There's a lot less time outside where you actually have like the energy to do your things. I feel like when you're working versus when you're at school. How's your client like journey? Like what? I know there's like levels, right? Yeah, I think I'm getting better. Getting better. It's a lot of forearm is what I heard. Okay. I feel like it. It's not a great workout, to be honest. Really? I thought it is. I know a guy who like rock climbed for like three years and his forearm is like huge. Like what the heck. I think Jim would be better just for like to be honest. Oh really? Okay. So I like try New Virginia. Yeah. Also climbing doesn't certain areas as much. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. I started last week. I was gonna say, I think last time we talked you told me you were interested in like music stuff, right? Yeah, Tech producing. Are you still doing that too? Not really. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. But you've been rock climbing for like a couple years. Honestly. Yeah. I mean brown, I guess really fun. I didn't go super often. Like. Yeah, yeah. But after brown, like the summer after brown I went a lot lot. Cuz I was kind of like I'm employed. I will be employed. Like. Yeah, yeah. Usually I've been okay for this whole. Right here. Yeah. What's like the gym like the rock climbing gym? Like what's it called? Like movement. Is that the popular one? Yeah, I go to a touch story. It's called dogs. Okay. Yeah. I think you're probably Like I have the stuff but I just haven't. I found the time to really sit down with it and in Soma. No, it's in dark. Oh, oh do. So I bite. Oh, okay. I see. I think there's like one near you of a mission that's a movement or. No, that's a. That might be a. Oh, it's not that close. Yeah, I don't know. I mean it's a. There's a lot of climbing. Oh yeah. Do you have a lot of work today? I mostly just need to write some docs. Okay. Okay. Which is a lot. Oh really? I guess. Yeah, I have like a bunch of docs. interest. Is it cuz you're like more into like the other stuff you're doing like baking and like climbing or like it It's like design docs. Or laundry launch class. Oh, launch dogs. Okay. Okay. Yeah. But have you seen any of your features like shipped on the app yet? Well, most of the features I work on you wouldn't see like direct features. Right, but like models or something. That's true. Yeah, but it's being used. Yeah, it's been used. Like I've seen like posts that are nominated by the things that I put out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's cool. That's pretty cool. Yeah, that's pretty cool. It's pretty crazy. You just like look at the experiment numbers and you're like getting like 60 million people or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember last year I did that. Yeah, it's pretty cool. Wait, I had intern you during Boston. just means that stuff takes like less energy for me to like. I feel like for music and stuff. I want to be have like a solid like bunch of hours in a row where I'm able to just get into the mindset. I think it was like I didn't have access to it but my mentor like would just run it for me. Yeah. Cuz we had an intern too. Oh really? And he didn't have access to like the dashboards or anything. Yeah, yeah. Which is so stupid. I don't know, I feel like it's for shit. It's kind of interesting actually. I think a Brown student from my year is joining post. I'm not sure if you saw. There's no, you know, Ashton. What section of post? I don't know but he sits really close to. My desk is really close to yours I think. And he's, he's gonna sit in that area as well. His entire team sits there. So I'm assuming you're. You're in. Okay, that makes sense. His team is like super, super close because I know you're like recommendation but he's probably more like, I don't know, either front end or like back end. You can search. Is that, is that the. Yeah, I can show you like. I don't know if I still have access on this phone. I have, I think he's right now the second floor just. Cuz I like this team. They don't have desks but I think they're trying to move them down. Oh, okay. Do you know him? No, I don't know him but okay, I know the team. Oh, they're in. Oh they're in. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Five minutes. Like I'd like ten minutes with. So it's like sister team. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're like cool. Yeah. I don't know. I think this year there's quite a few from Brown joining Google. I don't know about you. They, they were good. They're good. I'm not that nice. Oh, they're mostly in like mountain view. Oh yeah, yeah, majority is mountain. Are you going to head back? Yeah, probably, yeah. Do you have like a desk, like a cute desk at home? Oh yeah, yeah, I haven't done that yet. I just ordered like. Or you get two Hummers for your desk and one for your hook. And then I haven't. That. It. Yeah. You been climbing before you came here or is it something you started? Funny story. I thought, like, I basically ordered a bed ikea, and I thought, it's going to come on Friday. This is Friday, Last Friday. But it turns out it is Friday. I was sitting on the floor for, like, I'm still sitting on the floor. I have. I have a desk. I don't think I need a couch. Oh, but you have a. I'm assuming you have, like, a common room between you. Okay. I was like, their place is so much better. Why was. We have, like, a couch. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. When you're. The. How long templates. Oh, okay. Yeah. Sh. Cool. I'm done. Did you randomly. I was climbing before I came here. Oh, okay. Oh, okay. Like at Brown or like a little bit at Brown? I remember my friends went somewhere at Brown. It's like there's like one gym. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think everyone probably goes there. Interesting. So you did that to Brown. Okay. You have to drive there or something. You like grab a few people and like share or something. Okay. I think that's what my friends. Yeah, I think we spoke like last time. Like we got like a lunch or something while I was interning. But I think that was like towards the end of my internship or something. I don't know if you remember in New York or this was in. I think it was Sambuna I was on because I'm on the comments team and then. Yes, yes. It's kind of. I don't know if I want to continue doing it. Oh yeah, there's like a year so you can like cancel it after you start, so. I think you just won. I think. Yeah, yeah. Oh sure. I've been here for a year. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember you're just leaving about. I think so. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Now we're like two or three people. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you're still on the same team. Okay. Okay. And you're more on like the ML side. I think you are what you're saying kind of. Or did it change or like. No, it's just like we actually kind of just do everything. Like we do a little bit of info as well. Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. Do you like biking or like you just got to do. Oh, okay. Yeah. But yeah, I'm working on model based combination right now. Oh, okay. Do you like that kind of work or is it like. It's pretty cool. It's pretty cool. It's not very fulfilling but I don't know what work is fulfilling. So it's not fulfilling. Like what would be more fulfilling? Like music producing or like. Yeah, yeah. Or like working on work, AI safety or something. Oh, okay, you're interested in AI safety. Interesting, doesn't it? And I think Anthropic does a lot of that, right? I mean they do everything there. Yes, interesting. Hard part might be getting a job at Anthropic. I mean it's nice to be able to bike to here. Who's gonna get a job? Hard part is getting the job. Oh yeah. Hard part is. Yeah, that's true. Hey, what counts like fulfilling to. Is it like the intellectual side or is it like monetary side or like what's the, what's the part that's fulfilling? It's like you truly value what you're working on like a comics or. That's the question. Oh yeah, I guess that's the. For me, I don't know. I think it really depends but I don't know. I guess I do value it if I can impact people, but it also feels like, I don't know, I also feel like there's the aspect of do you have the control of the impact which I think I YouTube you don't. There's something I'm thinking about. It's like if you want to create impacts in the way you want to. Like for example, right now we're pushing a lot of short form content.